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Long live the Egyptian Revolution?

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http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/blog/2011/jan/28/egypt-protests-live-updates

Just for those who didn't follow the news, personally I think this is a great development. Police and soldiers have joined the protestors in some areas and there's pretty much a national rage.

Heart warming and I dearly hope Mubarak's regime is going down, though the threat of the Muslim Brotherhood looms on the horizon.

An-Egyptian-anti-governme-007.jpg


An Egyptian anti-government activist kisses a riot police officer following clashes in Cairo. Photograph: Lefteris Pitarakis/AP

fire.jpg


Locals-pray-in-the-street-009.jpg


Locals pray in the street in front of The l-Istiqama Mosque watched by riot police in Giza on January 28, 2011 in Cairo, Egypt Photograph: Peter Macdiarmid/Getty Images


Live footage.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/video/2011/jan/28/egypt-violent-protests-video
 
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well the guy faces the most serious protests since a long time and the protestors are still protesting en masse after many confrontations with the police.

Besides I guess the police is running out of tear gas.

Well, after the new goverment gets formed (including Pres. Mubarak), protestors would either go home (aka other streets) or get run over by Tanks, imo.
 
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I think this "form a new goverment" thing is an act to save his own neck, and if it fails and he is still met with stubbornness, violence should come into play.

I doubt Pres. Mubarak will give up easily, he isn't a 30-year president for nothing.
 
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Bullshit.

Tyranny it may have been, Mubarak was at least loyal and willing to cooperate with the West, which pretty much made at least a part of Egypt civilized, one of the few regions in the area which is not in total poverty and political disarray.

Judging by the instability of the region and the political regimes in the area, it's very much possible that once Mubarak is gone, a new dictator will step up and this time he'll be less cooperative with the "Christian" world, which will basically just add another country to the list of ones filled with islam radicals.

Revolutions bring no gain in the modern world.
 
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Bullshit.

which pretty much made at least a part of Egypt civilized, one of the few regions in the area which is not in total poverty and political disarray.

what makes you think it wasn't already?

Judging by the instability of the region and the political regimes in the area, it's very much possible that once Mubarak is gone, a new dictator will step up and this time he'll be less cooperative with the "Christian" world, which will basically just add another country to the list of ones filled with islam radicals.

well it's possible but there's already an opposition leader ready to take his place, some Noble Prize winner and the Muslim Brotherhood wasn't the main cause of this. Besides Egypt's sectarian violence is managable in contrast with other countries.

Revolutions bring no gain in the modern world.

Tunisia?
 
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Judging by the instability of the region and the political regimes in the area, it's very much possible that once Mubarak is gone, a new dictator will step up and this time he'll be less cooperative with the "Christian" world, which will basically just add another country to the list of ones filled with islam radicals.

It's probably going to end up like Iran where the younger generation rises up agaisnt the government but then a religion-based regime takes on the 'cause' of the revolution at the last moment and ends up the one in power.
 
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Bullshit.

Tyranny it may have been, Mubarak was at least loyal and willing to cooperate with the West, which pretty much made at least a part of Egypt civilized, one of the few regions in the area which is not in total poverty and political disarray.

Judging by the instability of the region and the political regimes in the area, it's very much possible that once Mubarak is gone, a new dictator will step up and this time he'll be less cooperative with the "Christian" world, which will basically just add another country to the list of ones filled with islam radicals.

Revolutions bring no gain in the modern world.

Before worrying about the Christians outside Egypt, check the ones inside. They are being treated like crap and get jobs like garbagemen and slaves. Sharm el-Cheikh not included for it is a tourism city and has a very low percentage of Egyptians living in it.

As for the "new dictator shit", Egyptians don't care, they just want a change. They don't want to get paid 100$ per month, they don't want to go work as shitty slaves outside Egypt anymore.

Egyptians aren't overthrowing Pres. Mubarak because of his foreign affairs, they're overthrowing him because of his actions and laws inside Egypt.
 
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Bullshit.

Tyranny it may have been, Mubarak was at least loyal and willing to cooperate with the West, which pretty much made at least a part of Egypt civilized, one of the few regions in the area which is not in total poverty and political disarray.

Judging by the instability of the region and the political regimes in the area, it's very much possible that once Mubarak is gone, a new dictator will step up and this time he'll be less cooperative with the "Christian" world, which will basically just add another country to the list of ones filled with islam radicals.

Revolutions bring no gain in the modern world.

Egypt doesn't need a puppet ruler, they need a real leader.
 
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Just something interesting; http://www.religiondispatches.org/d...easons_why_egypt’s_revolution_is_not_islamic/

1) The political Islamism that ended up triumphing in Iran was a much more authoritarian interpretation of Islam. It specifically embraced political power and preached a narrative of resistance, though its victory in Iran paradoxically ended any chance of victory elsewhere. That’s because when elites and other, non-religious ideological forces in neighboring Muslim countries saw the purges of prior elites taking place in Iran, they immediately became skeptical of working alongside Islamists in their own country.

Islamic challenges to regimes in Tajikistan, Algeria and Tunisia, among others, were violently supressed even though they pursued their goals democratically. Most Islamists learned from this brutal experience and grew from it; Egypt’s most powerful Muslim group, the Muslim Brotherhood, was one such group. It’s probably safe to say that Iran was the only victory for this style of Islamism, and now, some 30-plus years later, its moment has largely passed. The geopolitical, economic and social reasons for its emergence have disappeared.

2) Iran’s Islamist opposition to the Shah was shaped by the peculiarities of Shi’a Islam and Iranian history. Shi’as have a more organized and powerful clergy than Sunnis, and Iran’s clergy, unlike Egypt’s, were much more independent of the state. In Egypt today, among the main trends in Islamic practice are a quietist Salafism, which seeks a rigorous but non-political personal morality, and the Muslim Brotherhood.

And while the Brotherhood is an incredibly large and powerful organization, it is today a product of years of suppression, torture, and intimidation. While it seeks to change society, it does not pursue an explicitly political agenda. Rather, it believes that an ideal politics will be achieved once society is Islamized—in other words, enough introduction of Muslim values into popular culture, and society will simply reform itself—and that includes the state. So while they have political ideals, they certainly don’t have an explicit political program.

That said, it’s no surprise that the Brotherhood weren’t out ahead in the recent protests: They’ve largely eschewed street politics (it ends with their members electrocuted in jails). It’s also worth considering, although this is still conjectural, whether the Brotherhood declined to play a more public role even after they caught up to events on the street precisely because they know a more prominent role for themselves could draw negative attention. I’m sure the Brotherhood knows that Mubarak would love to have Islamists to blame for the uprising. It would make our government support for his crackdown that much easier to obtain.

3) People who study Iran know how vexed the relationship is, and has been, between Persian cultural identity and Islam. While many Iranians before the revolution were religious in a non-political way, the country’s elite tended to see Islam and Persianness as mutually incompatible. On the other hand, Egypt is a proudly Arab society (hint: the Arab Republic of Egypt) which has never seen Islam as incompatible with their specific ethnic and national project.

Arabness and Islam are hard to pull apart, such that the late Michel Aflaq, the founder of the Arab nationalist Ba’ath Party—he was a Christian—praised Islam as an achievement of the Arab cultural genius. (Many Muslims wouldn’t take too kindly to such a reading, but there you have it.) That difference in dynamics between Egypt and Iran needs to be stressed.

While Iran’s Shah campaigned against Islam and sought to erase its role in Persian history and culture, Mubarak never attacked Islam with anywhere near the same vehemence. He’s far more concerned with preserving power for himself than he is with rewriting Egyptian history (unfortunately for his prospects of remaining in power, he’s concerned with himself—and not even for Egypt’s advancement, unlike other Third World dictatorships, which do emphasize and achieve real economic growth). And this brings us to the most important point…

4) Egypt’s revolution doesn’t have to be Islamic because Islam isn’t at the heart of the problem on the ground. In fact, the non-political Egyptian Islam of the last few decades has succeeded in deeply Islamizing Egyptian culture, making Muslim piety interwoven with the everyday rhythms of Egyptian life. We saw this in the protests after the Friday prayers today, in the spontaneous congregational prayers that took place in the heat of demonstrations—and we can see it in the number of Egyptian women who veil (though many don’t and still strongly identify with Islam, whether culturally or religiously, personally or publicly).

Egypt’s society is a deeply Muslim one, and the very success of this non-political religious project has negated the need for a confrontational Islam. Egyptians know their religious identity is not under threat. ElBaradei, for example, joined in Friday prayers today before going out into the streets. Whether Egyptians identify with political Islam or secular democracy, their Arabness and Islam tend to be mutually supportive, and certainly not incompatible.
 
Bullshit.

Tyranny it may have been, Mubarak was at least loyal and willing to cooperate with the West, which pretty much made at least a part of Egypt civilized, one of the few regions in the area which is not in total poverty and political disarray.

Judging by the instability of the region and the political regimes in the area, it's very much possible that once Mubarak is gone, a new dictator will step up and this time he'll be less cooperative with the "Christian" world, which will basically just add another country to the list of ones filled with islam radicals.

Revolutions bring no gain in the modern world.

Egypt pretty much was "another country filled with islam radicals" before the revolution in an european/american viewpoint, the only difference were exactly the cooperation. That is also why that they probably won't be so happy about us the next time as we "officially" supported the dictatorship before the revolution. And I don't believe they are actually against us because of our religion, but because we are against theirs. It is after all written in the Koran that muslims should respect the followers of Christianity and Judaism.
 
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Why doesn't Mubarak just label some random foreign group as the source of everyone's problems and declare war on them? This has worked for the US for over a century.

Oh yeah, I forgot that he doesn't spoonfeed just enough of his people just enough bullshit to keep them quiet and grinning stupidly. Now that the people are desperate, they're attacking the source of their problems.

...and the cycle continues...

//\\oo//\\
 

Dr Super Good

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The president better not give in... If they do, Egypt will become an extreemest haven like Pakistan. Further more it will probably mean a allout war in the middle east against Israil (like happened previously). One of the reasons this has started is the president of Egypt has been activly hunting down extreemest Islamic groups in Egypt.

I am aware that some of the people say they want a free society, but it is almost garunteed that they will vote for some person with strong Islamic ties.

Let us not forget the poor Egyptian Christians who were treated like shit recently. Remember how they killed all the Pigs just because people called a virus Swine Flu?

On top of that, it has all that historical background that county. I survearly doubt an Islamic government would care about them and it may even discourage tourisim by bring back compulsory burkers for all women and such.

Remember this whole shinanigan was started after their prair so it was likly incited by local religious extreemests rather than the people getting pissed.
They are also blaming the president for stupid crap like expensive clothing and food... The fact is stuff is more expesnive, in the last 5 years prices have over doubled on some goods here in the UK.

What is even worse is they have caused people to start protesting in London... This is totally uncalled for, especially in the UK as protests are extreemly bad for the economy. I can understand to a degree protests about student fees, but even those were desasters which caused huge economic damage.
 
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Remember how they killed all the Pigs just because people called a virus Swine Flu?

It was actually Saudi Arabia that slaughtered all of its 300,000 pigs.

But that's sort of besides the point, Egypt was Israel's strongest ally in the middle east, and hopefully they will continue to be so even after a regime change. There will be no voting, a general will most likely take power. However, with a different leader, there will most likely be more freedom for the people of Egypt.


Edit: Changed the wording a bit
 
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The people are already pissed, frustrated, and overextended. The 'radicals' are simply stirring them up and giving them a direction to attack. It's really just a bunch of people being played. As cute as the idea of freedom is, it'll never exist for long. Anarchy never lasts long.

"Every revolution carries with it the seeds to it's own destruction."

If they succeed, they'll be overthrown eventually.

@DSG:
I can understand to a degree protests about student fees, but even those were desasters which caused huge economic damage.
...

//\\oo//\\
 
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The president better not give in... If they do, Egypt will become an extreemest haven like Pakistan. Further more it will probably mean a allout war in the middle east against Israil (like happened previously). One of the reasons this has started is the president of Egypt has been activly hunting down extreemest Islamic groups in Egypt.

I disagree - personally I think the reason this started was long unemployment, an example in Tunisia, and thirty years of oppression. Besides--

http://www.religiondispatches.org/d...easons_why_egypt’s_revolution_is_not_islamic/

I am aware that some of the people say they want a free society, but it is almost garunteed that they will vote for some person with strong Islamic ties.

Why are you so sure on that? There are plenty of other options and the Muslim Brotherhood isn't even leading the protests.

Let us not forget the poor Egyptian Christians who were treated like shit recently.

http://www.loonwatch.com/2011/01/eg...ptic-christmas-mass-serving-as-human-shields/

Remember how they killed all the Pigs just because people called a virus Swine Flu?

I remember a story they did so in South Korea too. Will try to dig it up.

Remember this whole shinanigan was started after their prair so it was likly incited by local religious extreemests rather than the people getting pissed.

Do you mean the protests themselves?

They are also blaming the president for stupid crap like expensive clothing and food... The fact is stuff is more expesnive, in the last 5 years prices have over doubled on some goods here in the UK.

and.. 30 years of oppresion, huge unemployment, etc.
 
Christianity really isn't a issue in the revolution, so wonder why it is so important to you Lich Prince. True, there is a oppression of Christianity in the "Arab world", but that is true for any other religion but Islam there. I don't hear you complain about oppression of hinduist, judaists or any other religion for that matter. But hell, Muslims isn't exactly the most beloved religion in Europe and America either, and they themself face constant threads of racist harassment in many countries in the western worlds.
 
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The government continues the claim that opposition groups like the Muslim Brotherhood could come into power in Egypt if the current government did not forgo parliamentary elections, confiscate the group's main financiers' possessions, and detain group figureheads, actions which are virtually impossible without emergency law and judicial-system independence prevention. Pro-democracy advocates in Egypt argue that this goes against the principles of democracy, which include a citizen's right to a fair trial and their right to vote for whichever candidate and/or party they deem fit to run their country.

I myself hope the Muslim Brotherhood comes to power and opens the borders to Gaza.
 
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The president better not give in... If they do, Egypt will become an extreemest haven like Pakistan.
So, if a Mid eastern country is not ruled by a man who happen to be a dog of the western word it becomes an extremist haven?

Further more it will probably mean a allout war in the middle east against Israil (like happened previously).
Or it will mean a human act that will open the way for Palestinian People to have a way out of the Gaza Problem.

One of the reasons this has started is the president of Egypt has been activly hunting down extreemest Islamic groups in Egypt.
Or maybe because of Hunger and people living in dumbsters
It all started by a man who burned himself in Tunis resulted in a revolution that ended the oppression.
Egyptians people wanted the same thing
3-4 people burned themselves in Egypt and nothing happened
a week or 2 later, people could not take it anymore and this happened

I am aware that some of the people say they want a free society, but it is almost garunteed that they will vote for some person with strong Islamic ties.
so what? (based on the facts you gave to make it guaranteed) unless you meant Islamic = Extremism = Terrorism

Let us not forget the poor Egyptian Christians who were treated like shit recently.
Like the Muslims ones? remember, both are equal human beings

Remember how they killed all the Pigs just because people called a virus Swine Flu?
what does this have to do with anything?

On top of that, it has all that historical background that county. I survearly doubt an Islamic government would care about them and it may even discourage tourisim by bring back compulsory burkers for all women and such.
Again, what seems the problem with you and the word Islamic?
also, Egypt is not Saudi Arabia. people are not forced to wear veils and such in Egypt.

Remember this whole shinanigan was started after their prair so it was likly incited by local religious extreemests rather than the people getting pissed.

first, Prayers = extremists? I am a daily praying man
and no, it about people getting pissed for living the shittiest life in the middle east. Egypt have the Biggest amount of people and the poorest in the mid east after all.

They are also blaming the president for stupid crap like expensive clothing and food... The fact is stuff is more expesnive, in the last 5 years prices have over doubled on some goods here in the UK.
yeah because that make total sense, people in the Uk get about 200-300$ a month.
let's look at it this way, people are starving and barely keeping their families alive in Egypt, while in the UK shopping in malls got uglier because of the double prices of luxuries

What is even worse is they have caused people to start protesting in London... This is totally uncalled for, especially in the UK as protests are extreemly bad for the economy. I can understand to a degree protests about student fees, but even those were desasters which caused huge economic damage.
if you mean by protesting as in protest for Egypt, then that is a humane stance to support the people who live in Egypt who happen to be MUSLIMS and CHRISTIANS if that even matters

Or less freedom... They are capable of brining in extreemest laws then.
Your have a problem with stereotyping every Muslim you encounter?
 
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The Egyptians are doing what they are because they have nothing else. They've tried to make a living for themselves and been blocked every time. They lost their jobs, got barred from selling food (self-employment), face increasing prices for the basic necessities of life. They aren't complaining because they're struggling to buy the newest car, but rather because they can't afford to feed and shelter themselves. They have no jobs to work, that's why they're demonstrating.

@TWIF: The problem isn't with the individual in the position, it's in the system itself. In the case of the US it is a democracy, but it doesn't serve it's people. The 14th Amendment has been used to support far more corporations then minority ethnicities.

The US has a ways to go before we reach the point seen now in Egypt. However, the gov. will probably illegally invade some more countries or engage in a legitamit war to redirect our frustions at someone else, benefiting those in power.

//\\oo//\\
 
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I do not know how it will go for the Egyptians, but I hope it works out well for their people. I heard the other day on the radio that the army "considers the people's claims legitimate" and will not intervene. If true, this is huge. I remember Iran's last election. Nothing would have pleased me more than to see the theocracy crumble and its leaders hang, but I had no illusions. There was never once a threat to it during that farce of an "election". Any such threat would have been crushed.

I've got two concerns. First, protesting is hard. It doesn't pay the bills, and sooner or later, you have to put food on the table. How long this lasts depends largely on how much it accomplishes and how much sacrifice is needed to keep it going. Second, there's the muslim brotherhood. They're the oldest, best-organized opposition movement in Egypt, and they're a bunch of crazy fucking fundies. They've not been voicing their fundie-insanity much recently, but they're hard at work behind the scenes and if you remember your history Khomeini once tried to play the "let's all get along and have a secular democracy" card when it was advantageous for him to do so.

For Egypt's sake, I hope their revolution doesn't simply replace one evil with another. It happened in Iran about 31 years ago. Almost to the day. People deserve a chance to live their lives in peace, without tyranny.
 
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There is no way in hell he is making it out alive until the september elections.
The fact that they are trying to get all of the journalists out of Egypt gives me really bad creeps. Ususally that means they're going to do someting awful they don't want the world to see.
I want to see a democracy rise in Egypt, but I currently don't see it going too well. I hope the best for the people of Egypt. I really like their rich culture.
 
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That's a bit paranoid. Thousands of pro-Mubarak supporters... men, women, and children... all being military agents in civilian clothing? Please...

well yeah the pro-democracy guys took them prison and discovered Police ID badges and some even told them that they were instructed by their boss.

Opposition groups have reportedly also seized police identification cards amongst the pro-Mubarak demonstrators.

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2011/02/201122124446797789.html
 
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I am seriously sick of this.

Mainly, I am tired of people comparing Mubarak to Ceausescu, a former president of Romania, my country, that was executed in december '89 for being a tyrant following a lengthy revolution.

Also, the United States getting involved is stupid. People keep saying "WHY DOESN'T OBAMA TELL MUBARAK TO STEP DOWN AND FINISH EVERYTHING?!". Easy. Because Obama is smart. Even if Mubarak cooperated with the USA, he has no authority whatsoever to tell Mubarak to step down. Forcing him to do so would cause another conflict with the USA really doesn't need right now. Not to mention that the whole world would be effected by another armed conflict caused by the americans.

Subject's a bit outdated, but I felt the need to express myself about it.
 
Also, the United States getting involved is stupid. People keep saying "WHY DOESN'T OBAMA TELL MUBARAK TO STEP DOWN AND FINISH EVERYTHING?!". Easy. Because Obama is smart. Even if Mubarak cooperated with the USA, he has no authority whatsoever to tell Mubarak to step down. Forcing him to do so would cause another conflict with the USA really doesn't need right now. Not to mention that the whole world would be effected by another armed conflict caused by the americans.

Quoted for Correctness.
 
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